Protection Bouviers

[Howard Gaines III]

I use my Bouviers for K-9 personal protection and for farm style herding. Since these are working lines animals and not show lines, they need real jobs. I have been told that there aren't any working Bouviers left. I have tried to purchase a titled female from Europe, titled in KNPV, French Ring, or Schutzhund. Whow! I didn't think this would be that hard.

I train my two, Rock and Bear, with the DELMARVA WORKING DOG GROUP in Harrington, Delaware. This is a small, family-friendly group of folks who come from all areas of Delmarva (Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia.) Our style of training is a spin-off of the K-9 sports of Schutzhund and French Ring, and the practical applications of home K-9 security. One of our members has a Working Rottie and two of us share the interest in real big Bouvs!

Like to find out if we can generate any regional interest in the Working Bouvier and build up a solid core of interested folks. Like I said, never thought that finding workers would be soooo hard!

[Mike]

Different people consider "working dog" to mean different things. A lot of those that raise their Bouvs for ring sport, don't consider anything else a Bouv does as really "working". Which to me, is a very narrow way of looking at what the term means. Even most of the ring sport people are only weekend warriors with their dogs... just as many of the herding, tracking, carting, etc., Bouviers mostly only get to do this on weekends or during the cooler months of the year. Even Europe is getting less and less full time working Bouviers. It's not the dogs fault of course, but how things have changed for us humans.

Mike

[Howard Gaines III]

It seems that no matter where I go in Delaware, folks always want to see and hung my dogs, my Big Bouvs. The first words out of there mouth, "Are they safe?" Sure they're safe...just don't touch them. Mine are working dogs, trained to protect the owner and MY stuff, farm hands. The idea that some folks get jacked out of shape if they aren't allowed to pet a "strange" dog is odd to me.

The same mindset is with kids. Would you want just any person hugging and kissing on YOUR kids? Don't think so. I had a former cop come to training one day an bent down to see my male, Rock. "Brother, I wouldn't do that, we're about to do protection work." As soon as those words were out of my head, he stuck his arm out and Rock popped him on the inside forearm below the elbow.

It wasn't Rock's fault that a former K-9 cop didn't have better sense, and it wasn't mine for the warning! If K-9 owners tell you that it isn't a good idea to SEE the dog, DON'T. You might find out the real reason for it.

[Mike]

That's where those of us that have family and people dogs disagree. Our Bouviers are trained to tell the difference between someone that wants to pet them or hug them or come up and slap one of us on the back, is much different than someone that is trying to steal from us or put a knife in our back. In most cases, a dog that is always "working" and always on guard is not a safe dog to have in public. They why the German Shepards got such a bad reputation, because nobody ever knew when one was going to go off and chew up someone's kid or other inocent by stander that did nothing more than walk into the dogs field of view and surprised him. Or they reached out to shake the owner's hand and the dog sees it as an attack and takes the arm off. This is why a well trained and properly tempmented Bouvier is so valuble when used by law enforcement. They don't have to worry about their Bouvier going off at the wrong time. They work better in crowd control because they can reason out a threat or a energetic welcome by someone.

Any dog that can not be trusted out in the general public, should not be out in public. It's unfortunate that too many people that play at protection sports don't understand this and end up turning their Bouvier into a dangours animal that can end up hurting someone and giving our breed as bad a name as many others. And it doesn't matter if it's only 1 in 100 or 1 in 500 Bouviers that are this way... once the general public (and insurance companies and animal rights fanatics) gets this perception, they will see all Bouviers this way.

Mike

[Howard Gaines III]

Mike I can see some points to that position and have to disagree to others. Those that "play with protection" are not the same as those like myself who "train for K9 PP," big difference. Also as part of our training style, we do social walk ups by the decoy. The person comes up and shakes hands. The dog should be watchful but not aggressive. If the person grabs us or pushes us, the dog must deploy!

Our reasoning is simple, I have an extensive martial arts background, started in 1967. I know that a well placed thrust or punch to the throat can leave a person fighting for their life and breath. If you cannot talk, how can you deploy your dog? If the dog is trained to function on a verbal release only, you are done. This is the reason for our style of training.

I agree that if it is not "safe" around the general public, you should not set the dog up for failure. And I agree that too many other breds have gotten bad press for things which dog owners have done or failed to do. It isn't the breed it's the owner deed. This is the reason why I am big against ANY form of BSL. It wouldn't shock me if they tried to outlaw stuffed animals!

The Bouvier has failed to take the law enforcement lead in Europe and in the United States because of several reasons. The top dog in protection sports like PSA and in police work is the Belgium Malinois. Fast, loves to bite, and smaller frame to name three reasons. You don't have to have one to win; it is far and away the dog to beat in Schutzhund, French Ring, KNPV...you name it. Not everyone can handle a big dog like the Bouv or Giant Schnauzer. Many are too defensive or even hardheaded for the average pet home, I'm taking working lines here and not show lines. They take leadership and I know I'm preaching...

I have been involved in law enforcement. Never saw a Bouvier in local, state, or the private industry. In April of last year, I followed my buddy to have his Rottweiler tested for police service work. The master trainer at this canine agency said he hadn't seen many Bouviers doing police work due to their size and lack of strong temperament for the job. I can also tell you I have never seen an American show lines German Shepherds, Bouviers, or GSNs doing police work. Thank you show lines folks!

This is one reason why the American Border Collie Association was upset when the AKC wanted to take on the breed and use DNA from working dog folks. It is my position that when you weaken the breed for the show ring, you also weaken the genetics of that line for work use.

Any hoot, glad we can agree and find points to exchange on in a social manner. Keep the posts alive!

[Sue]

Howard, I'm surprised that you're not aware of the Bouvier k9 in CA some years back... Icky... I've met his handler. There was another Bouv (can't remember the name) who worked security at a large hospital in WA. I've heard that there were a number of working Bouviers in the Detroit area in years past as well.

You said " I agree that if it is not "safe" around the general public, you should not set the dog up for failure."

I'm less concerned about the dog failing than I am about some innocent person ending up with undeserved punctures in his body. I've seen it happen and I know people who ended being up on the wrong end of some Bouvier's teeth when the owner failed to socialize, train, or even control their dog.

My neighbor for many years was the master K9 officer in this area and I got to know many of the K9 officers that he trained, along with their dogs. The dept naturally had GSDs. The vast majority of the K9s I knew were approachable, social, petable dogs. PDs can't afford the liability of suits filed by perps or citizens who are bitten without good cause. These dogs did their jobs, taking down perps or decoys with their tails waggin' a mile a minute, but they were not likely to bite someone who just happened to reach out to pet them or someone who touched their handler. I had a Springer Spaniel in those days who had a very convincing bark and hold as well <which was a real hoot to watch for anyone who knew what a sweet doggie he was>.

In talking with folks I know who are involved in police work and K9s, my gut feeling is that they really don't want to deal with Bouviers, partly due to coat issues, but mainly because they want dogs who will blindly obey commands rather than using their own initiative.

How many show line Bouviers have you actually spent time with Howard?

Cheers,
Sue

[Howard Gaines III]

Originally Posted by Sue

Howard, I'm surprised that you're not aware of the Bouvier k9 in CA some years back... Icky... I've met his handler. There was another Bouv (can't remember the name) who worked security at a large hospital in WA. I've heard that there were a number of working Bouviers in the Detroit area in years past as well.

You said " I agree that if it is not "safe" around the general public, you should not set the dog up for failure."

I'm less concerned about the dog failing than I am about some innocent person ending up with undeserved punctures in his body. I've seen it happen and I know people who ended being up on the wrong end of some Bouvier's teeth when the owner failed to socialize, train, or even control their dog.

My neighbor for many years was the master K9 officer in this area and I got to know many of the K9 officers that he trained, along with their dogs. The dept naturally had GSDs. The vast majority of the K9s I knew were approachable, social, petable dogs. PDs can't afford the liability of suits filed by perps or citizens who are bitten without good cause. These dogs did their jobs, taking down perps or decoys with their tails waggin' a mile a minute, but they were not likely to bite someone who just happened to reach out to pet them or someone who touched their handler. I had a Springer Spaniel in those days who had a very convincing bark and hold as well <which was a real hoot to watch for anyone who knew what a sweet doggie he was>.

In talking with folks I know who are involved in police work and K9s, my gut feeling is that they really don't want to deal with Bouviers, partly due to coat issues, but mainly because they want dogs who will blindly obey commands rather than using their own initiative.

How many show line Bouviers have you actually spent time with Howard?

Cheers,
Sue

I don't spend any time with anything show lines. I own real working Border Collies and not show lines want-a-bes. My Bouviers are from working lines and not show lines. Show stuff is okay if you are all about the "look" but looks don't get it done, IMO. My experience with stuff from show lines is that the genetics are bred down in them to make them suitable for the show ring.


We have tested show lines German Shepherds, Mastiffs, Cane Corsos, the ones which folks thought would be great PPDs. They looked big and bad, but didn't have the genetics to handle the stress and problem-solving skills needed for PP work. Now, this is NOT to say that all show lines animals are junk or worthless, far from it! But far and away any show lines animal cannot stand up to the working lines of any breed, any!

I took my female Bouv to the groomer yesterday, this girl was new to the business and she also shows dogs. She said that Bear was the nicest Bouvier that she had seen. "Many are nasty," her words. Other folks say the same about my dogs, BCs and Bouvs what nice dogs you have... It's largely about training.

Real Police Dogs aren't social butterflies. They are one owner/handler and job focused. Unless it is a DARE dog used in PR stuff, hard working police dogs have one focus, don't trust any one but the handler and bite the bad guy because they can hurt you. This is one reason many law enforcement departments have orders for their employees NOT to wrestle with or touch the K9 officer, the dog operates from the attack on the handler.

You are correct, most folks/cops don't want to deal with a plush Bouvier coat. My male has a old world coat, very rough coat and it's like a Schnauzer. He is an easy keeper, but the female needs groomed twice a year to keep it 1 1/2". Never been to the west coast so you have the advantage on dogs there.